Transcript – Interview with Corporate Rebel – Pim de Morree

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Jennifer Thompson 00:00
Welcome back to The Deviant Thinking podcast. I’m your host, Jennifer Thompson today and always will explore career advice that breaks the rules. I am so excited to have Pim de Morree here with me today. He’s joining me from Holland. And he is a Corporate Rebel. And Pim and his partner have recently released a book by the same name. And I’m going to hand it right over to you, Pim, and maybe you can tell me a little bit about the mission of your organization. And you know, kind of the impact you want the this new book to have.

Pim de Morree 00:39
Yep. Well, let me start by saying that I’m first of all, very happy to be here to be able to share a little bit about the work we’re doing and and also about our mission. So let’s start with that. Mission is quite simple. If you put it very simple simply. The mission of Corporate Rebels is To make work more fun, and sounds maybe a bit superficial, but what it’s about is to create workplaces where people are actually highly engaged, where they’re extremely motivated, where they love to contribute with their talents and their skills to something that they truly believe in. And we started the Corporate Rebels a couple of years ago, about four years ago now. And the reason why we actually believe that work should be more fun is because we experienced what it’s like to work in an environment where work is not fun. So we talk about why by the way, I talk about Joost, my good friend and myself. And we started the corporate rebels from this point of frustration because we experienced that working in the corporate world, or at least of corporates that we were working in. were based on such outdated models of work and such outdated ways of working that we while working there experienced that work is for many people, especially meeting us, not very enjoyable. And it was just 40 hours a week, waiting for the weekend to begin, and then waiting for weeks for the paycheck to arrive. And that was about the main goal of what we were trying to do their . And for us that wasn’t really motivating. So after a couple of years, about three and a half years of frustrating corporate experience, we decided to quit. And we came up with this idea of our current company Corporate Rebels, where we said, let’s visit the world’s most inspiring workplaces. And let’s spend a couple of days inside these organizations to understand how they work. And let’s interview as many people as possible and to understand how they actually work different than traditional workplaces. And let’s learn how work can actually be made more fun. So more people actually enjoy their working lives. And this is what, in a nutshell, Corporate Rebels so we continuously traveled the world to visit the world’s most progressive companies and every Anything we learned we share through our blog, and also, as you mentioned in our recently published book, but also in talks and workshops, and all kinds of things that we do to push this movement forward to make sure that the more people start enjoying their work, and the more companies actually changed their ways of working to become more progressive workplaces themselves.

Jennifer Thompson 03:22
That sounds wonderful, and it completely aligns with my clients and the folks that listen to this podcast. They all have that desire for work to be more fun. I actually love y ou said it sounds simple. I actually love that it’s simple because it really should be right it’s it’s not about this complex idea of working but just that one should enjoy their work, right? The as the saying goes, you know, one never works a day, you know, if they love the work that they they do, and I think that’s the goal of so many of my clients. I’m curious as you travel the world I think one of the the good things I hear is there are progressive companies out there for people to work for, for people to get engaged with. How did you guys choose these progressive companies and and determine that they were on your list to visit?

Pim de Morree 04:23
Yeah, well, it’s it’s kind of a personal list. So when we were still in our corporate careers, and we were thinking about this idea of figuring out how we’re could be organized differently. We started by creating a list based on some books we had read. So for example, the more usual suspects we added to the, to what we now call our bucket list, so the list of pioneers that we want to visit to understand how to make work more fun. So we started with the usual suspects. We read books from for example, Laszlo Bock, the former HR director at Google, so we added Google to the list. We heard that Spotify was doing interesting things when it comes to their own. organizational structure. So we added Spotify as well. But over time, we started to dive more into these kinds of radical workplaces where we’ve really come across some interesting examples of large companies with no management whatsoever, or companies where employees set their own salaries are set their own working hours, and a lot of autonomy and how they do things. But these companies most of the time are not very well known. So we’ve been visiting companies all around the world that people have probably never heard of, but that are doing really interesting things. And it’s mainly because we’ve been visiting similar companies. And while visiting these companies, we then learned about others who are doing similar radical things. And so still, it’s really hard to find now we’ve been researching this topic for about four years and traveling around the world to visit all these companies. And we have visited about 120 at the moment. And still it’s really hard to find new ones. So the total list now includes about 170 pioneers. So that’s academics, CEOs, entrepreneurs and organizations. And in four years, and that’s still a very short list, I’d say. So, the vast, vast majority of companies are still very traditional. It’s really hard to find those radical pioneers out there that are really challenging the status quo.

Jennifer Thompson 06:23
So really searching for that that needle in a haystack. But they’re out there, which I think is exciting. And I you know, what I see when I, when I talk to folks from all kinds of organizations, is there’s a desire to move in that way. They just often don’t I don’t know. I’m curious as you as you’ve gone to all of these companies. One of the things that interests me is in your book, you you talk about that. A lot of these companies hire for culture, and train for skills and many of my listeners and And clients are in the job searching mode. And I’m curious about how like, I guess the question is really like the employees that show up the ones that they hire? Do you see them as different folks? Or do? And do they come with that energy and that experimental mindset? Or are they kind of made once they get there?

Pim de Morree 07:26
Well, when when we talk about hire for culture, train for skills, what we mean is that back in the days and still a lot of traditional companies tend to do it like this. They focus on what kind of skills do we actually need for the people working in our teams in our organization, and let’s find those skills and then add them to our organization. While many of these progressive say, well, skills can be taught and the culture of the organization is more important than figuring out which skills we actually need, so it’s more important to first focus On do the people we are going to hire? Are they actually good fit with our culture, and if so, then let’s look at if they are interested in learning the skills that we want them to learn. And so they kind of turn it the other way around. For example, when we visited Spotify, we learned about how they actually changed their recruitment process as well, to make sure a culture was more at the forefront of the process. So at first, they had, I believe, four rounds of interviews where the first the second and the third were focused on skills. And then when people move through these three stages successfully, they would end up in a culture interview. But they figured
out that they were just hiring people because of their skills and not so much because of the culture. Sometimes these people were very self centered and not focused on team performance, but just on individual performance. But they were really reluctant not to hire them because they had already shown in those first three stages They were such capable and skillful people. And so they said, why not turn it around? Let’s start with the culture interview. And if that doesn’t fit, then we don’t even need to look at the skills anymore. And we can already more easily put somebody asides during that very first step. And if people do actually get through it at culture interview, if there’s a good fit in the culture, then let’s see if we can also test their skills, but they already have it or maybe that they are good at developing it, that we can actually focus our time and energy on getting their skills up to the required level. So you see that these progressive organizations really focus much more on that. So finding the people that fit their values that fit their purpose, and if so, then let’s see if they have the right skills as well or maybe we can train them so they can get up to the required skill level.

Jennifer Thompson 09:56
That sounds wonderful and and I wish more companies would do That you talked about that they really defined their values as companies. Again, that’s something that when I talk to my clients about I want them to know their own personal values. As you’ve interviewed all of these companies, are there common values that each of them have that kind of define them in this way?

Pim de Morree 10:20
Well, the painful thing here is even if you go to traditional companies, they have all if you look at the values, they more or less seem like similar companies. So even the very traditional companies say, well, we have important company values. And whatever we do, everything is focused on putting those values to the forefront of our business. But in most cases, that’s actually not the case. So they have these values. They put them in their annual reports and sometimes on fancy posters in their meeting rooms. But nobody really makes decisions based on their values or they don’t really use them in their recruitment process or in their incentive system. In the company. So what is actually the difference between those progressives and traditional ones is that the progressives actually use them. So they don’t have a lot of rules in place in their companies. Instead, they say, well, let’s use the values as our guidelines, let’s use them in our daily decision making, let’s use them in our recruitment process, in the way we incentivize people in our company in the way we do performance assessment, unless you really use it as a guideline for what we want our culture to be. So you don’t really see a difference in the actual values. But you see a difference in the application of those values between progressives and more traditional companies.

Jennifer Thompson 11:40
I’m curious for yourselves as you’ve gone out and looked for these companies, right? It is really hard. I agree with you to tell that difference between a company that is progressive is really living those values and one that’s really good at marketing and branding, those those values and it is it is a skill set, I try to teach my clients right, they get to pick the companies that they work for. And it’s their job to interview the company as much as it is for the company to to interview them. Do you have any? How do you interview that company to determine that difference? Is there like a favorite question that you asked them? Or? Or how do you dig in and be able to actually discern that difference between the one who’s actually walking the walk? And the one who’s just just doing the talk? Yeah.

Pim de Morree 12:31
Well, first of all, that was at first it was a bit harder for us because you have to kind
of think develop your bullshit radar. And at first, it was really hard for us to figure out okay, this company sincere or is it actually just just a load of crap. And what is most important for us actually still today is to actually visit those companies to talk to many different employees in the company, whether they are frontline staff or people at the very top of an organization. And I think once you walk into a building, and that’s what we noticed very much, once you walk into a building, once you talk to the people in those companies, you really feel there’s a difference between the ones that just say it and the ones that actually also do it and put it into practice. One, one very telling example is our visit to one of the workplace pioneers on our list, which is Patagonia, the outdoor clothing brand, and we went to visit them back in November 2016. And Patagonia is not just about making clothes for people who love the outdoors. But it’s also a company that focuses a lot of its efforts on sustainability and making sure that the clothes that they make are as less polluting to the environment as possible. So we went over there and we actually wanted to learn from them how they do it, because it’s nice to say it but how do you actually put that stuff into practice? We had a meeting with them scheduled at 6:30am in Ventura, California, but we actually were supposed to meet at the beach. So we took our camper van we, which we were driving back then around the US to visit these pioneers. And we went to the meeting location at the beach 630 in the morning. And then, at first nobody was there. So we thought we actually mixed up the am and pm because we’re not used to using that here in Holland. But then, after a couple of minutes, a big white van arrived and his 15 year old hippie jumped out and said, Well, guys, before we’re gonna share anything about how we work at Patagonia, we’re gonna make you experience what we’re all about. And this guy took a surf surfing or at least we were trying to serve. It was more like rolling around in the waves. And we were actually experiencing what come with the company Patagonia was about so they weren’t just telling us why they were doing what they were doing, but they were actually making a difference. Period what they were about which is enjoying outdoors responsibly. And for us, this was already a very clear sign that this company wasn’t just talking about it, but they were also actually doing it. And also, during our talks two days after, and with various employees from the company constantly learned how they put their purpose and their values into practice. And that, for example, they quit their most profitable product line back in the 90s because it wasn’t sustainable enough for them. So they quit it and found a solution later on to develop something that was more sustainable, and only then saw profits increase again, but constantly walking the talk on issues like this and I think the main way to figure out if a company actually does it, is to go there and to talk to many people. So also if you’re looking for a new job, and if you’re looking for a company that really fits your personal values and your the purpose that you are looking for in your job, And the main advice would be to actually go there and to visit those companies and to talk to many people. And as you mentioned, interview the company just as much as the company interviews you

Jennifer Thompson 16:13
That is such good advice and and you are right. Patagonia is an amazing organization and I’ve had the privilege to visit them and work with their people many, many times and, and you’re right from the moment you walk in and you’re greeted as a real human being at the front door and may be comfortable. And then you attend your meetings sitting outside on the veranda and in the sunlight. And, you know, and people are coming and going and the dogs are around, you know, it’s a different kind of place. And in the same sense, you know, they’re serious about their business. It’s a really interesting combination. That they can look so casual in one way but when they get into their business side, they are are almost ruthless, like he said and and defending their mission that they were willing to give up profit to do the right thing.

Pim de Morree 17:10
Yeah. And this is what’s inspiring about companies like, like Patagonia that people believe in what the company stands for. And the company actually puts its money where its mouth is. And so many companies are doing the opposite where they talk fancy words, and they say, well, we care about the environment. And we care about this, and we
care about that. But in the end, all they care about is their shareholders. And in every decision important, every important decision that’s being made people feel, okay, you say one thing, but you do the exact opposite of what you’re saying. And this completely destroys all trust in the organizational trust in senior management in a company. So you can imagine that for companies so it’s important to actually do as you say, and not just Because it’s, it’s the right thing to do. And but also because it draws in employees, it draws in suppliers and customers who believe in the same thing. And who see that you’re sincere and authentic about this thing that you actually believe in. So I think it’s important for for companies and nowadays because not many companies are actually doing it like this. It’s a very simple way to differentiate yourself from the vast majority of companies who do just a talking and not the walking.

Jennifer Thompson 18:30
Wonderful and it’s such a simple concept, right? It’s just just honesty and integrity with with yourself and your mission. So as I’m thinking one of the one of the other questions that that comes to mind and again, I have have job seekers out there every day is they’re they’re looking for these these great organizations. You know, one thing and it’s easy for me to keep talking about Patagonia because it’s an organization I’m familiar with, but one of the things that I see of those employees is they show up engaged. It’s it’s mutual. Right? Patagonia is getting some of the best people because they’re honest. But those people have to show up engaged as well. So I’m curious as you’ve gone around, I’m sure there’s people that come up in and your book signings. And so I was like, I wish I could work at one of these companies, what do I do to be able to work at one of those companies? What What advice do you tell them so they can get themselves ready to be a good hire at one of these organizations.

Pim de Morree 19:34
But I think it comes down more or less to the same thing. So being passionate about what it is that the organization is trying to do. And so the purpose should be aligned, and the values should be aligned and you should find a way to show that whether it’s through. I don’t know the way you approach the company or the way you go to the interviews
or the way you even search for the companies that you want to apply it. I think First of all important to understand, okay, what is it that I want personally in a job? What do I want to contribute to? And what are my personal values? What do I think is important in the job and like for my, for myself, for example, having freedom and flexibility is a very important part of my work. Nowadays, I get the chance to organize everything myself, but if I would be looking for a company, freedom and flexibility would be very high on that list because I want to make my own decision, I don’t want somebody else to make decisions for me. So if I would be looking for a company, I first of all had to make sure that my values align with the company’s values. And then when you actually start applying to, to those companies, you need to show I think, through your experience through stuff you’ve done before, that your values are very much aligned with those of the company and that you have besides fit with the purpose and value is also and skills and A lot of energy to add to such an organization. And I think that’s still the main thing like if we get people want to, like we have a lot of people want to apply at our company. And because they love what we do, they believe in what we stand for. So for us if we have to say no to a lot of those applications, and the ones we pick out to maybe not even say yes, but to at least have a talk with those people, is because we see their passion for our topic. And we see their passion for the values and the things that we believe in. So if there’s alignment on those, I think it’s really hard for companies to say no, to a person who’s applying to them.

Jennifer Thompson 21:45
Wonderful. And, and that brings me I’m curious as you as you evaluate those, those folks that want to work for you, I would imagine and this is something I encourage my clients to do is To not be typical when you send an application into one of these organizations or to yourself, you know if I know myself when I get the resume and it’s boring looking and they they worry a little bit too much maybe about the skills and not about their, their softer skills, and I don’t even know that I like that word, but more their culture and their energy that they bring. They seem boring to me. So I’m curious if there’s anyone that stands out that you’ve hired that maybe did approach things in a, in a in a more radical or different way that really got your attention?

Pim de Morree 22:37
Yeah, well, first of all, I think it’s important to say that we never hired somebody based on a resume or motivation letter. And in fact, we, if we receive those, then we most of the time, don’t even reply to them. Even though we are very happy with the fact that they are applying but we simply get so many we can’t answer them all. And we decide not
to pick those because they often, it’s so standard, like just sending in your resume and sending in a motivation letter is the very, very, very least you can do to get a job. So, for us, if we have the opportunity to pick from more people than just the ones that send in a resume and a motivation letter, well, then we do that. And we find the people that are more original that show one way or another that they are engaged with what we do, for example, the most recent conversation we had with somebody who wants to work with us, was actually last Monday a couple of days ago. And that person had been part of our community already for a while, and he had shown to be very active to contribute to other people’s thinking, to share ideas to share knowledge. So we already knew even before he applied, that he was very interested in the topic and was contributing a lot of value not just to us, but also the people in our community. So it was already on our radar before we actually applied so and I think that’s something important to understand for people, like if you show, if you have the passion for what the company you want to apply for is doing, then find ways to show it not just through motivation letter and a resume, but through other ways, more creative ways that you really show that you. I’m not just saying all these nice things because you want to have a job, but that you’re actually passionate about this topic. Because I believe then in the end, it will turn out to be or it will result in something more meaningful than when you’re just writing some nice words and send them out to the various companies.

Jennifer Thompson 24:39
As you say that what comes to mind is exactly what you were saying about a company like Patagonia, right? They show up, they’re honest, they live their values every day. And you know, now with our connectedness in the world, and our ability to be on social media. And so, as a potential employee, you can show up and walk your walk ever Every day, even if you’re at a company that is not engaging to you, if you’re passionate about work, if someone’s passionate about the the corporate rebel concept and doing work in a very, very different way, even if they’re in a standard organization, they can still engage with folks who are doing work in a different way. They can study it, they can share that information. And you’re right. It’s very, very visible for a potential organization to see. And I think that’s a way like I said, to definitely walk the walk, not just talk about it. Too many people I think, even employees talk about I want to work at a company that I can be engaged with, but they don’t know how to be engaged in their own life.

Pim de Morree 25:43
Yeah, and I think if you Yeah, I think I think you’re totally right. And I hate the term personal brands, but what I do like is the fact that you share what you’re passionate about with others, online or offline in all kinds of meeting groups are. But if you try to find what makes you tick and what you’re passionate about, and you start actually being active in that topic, then I’m hundred percent sure that good things will come of it. And whether that’s a new job or a new hobby or new people you want to meet who believe in the same thing, then I think in the end, the most important thing is, first of all, to figure out what it is you want, and then be active in it. So not just read about it and not tell anyone but try to share what you’re learning, try to share what you’re passionate about. And I think then it will kind of grow organically and you will find something that you also for a job can do that fits what you’re passionate about.

Jennifer Thompson 26:48
Wonderful, which can lead us right to to your book, because that’s your way of sharing what you guys are passionate about. So for my listeners who’d be interested, tell us a little bit about that. The premise of this book and kind of the information that it’s that it’s sharing.

Pim de Morree 27:05
Yeah, so and before doing that, I think one more important thing to add. And you mentioned, it’s a way for us to share what we are learning and what we’re passionate about. It’s hundred percent true. And we’ve been doing it from the very start. So now it sounds nice. We’ve written a book and sounds so fancy, but it’s, I can tell you, when we started four years ago, we had nothing but a very small room where we moved in together because we had to save costs. And we had this very bad looking blog where we were sharing everything we were learning in a very shitty way I’d say because we we weren’t good writers and I still very doubtful we are nowadays, but we didn’t really know how to share it. We didn’t have good websites share it, but there was a lot of passion and we were constantly we said, okay, maybe we don’t know a lot now but if we continue to share, probably people We’ll be interested in this, and people will join kind of that community around it. So I think it’s important to mention as well, it doesn’t have to be perfect from the very start, you can start very crappy and just continuously evolve. And if you are truly passionate about it as we are around this topic, then over time it will become better quality and it will become more attractive to other people to follow it. But I think it’s important not to, to start from a point where you think everything has to be perfect, but it can also be very crappy when you start as long as you’re passionate about it and you’re willing to develop it. I think that’s more important than trying to come up with his perfect way to share it.

Jennifer Thompson 28:41
Well, I think as you say that it also brings up the topic of patience, that you’re totally right when when you start when I started deviant thinking very much the same thing it was, I was tired of not allowing, not being allowed to be as creative in the organization. I had been in And it, you know, it had to grow and more often, and I think it’s so easy to buy into the overnight success. And if you are someone who is looking for job, you know, well, why didn’t I get the first job that I applied for? So that that patience to build your craft to make that shift is, is huge. So I appreciate you bringing that up. So thank you.

Pim de Morree 29:25
And then and then going back to your your previous question like what is the premise of the book? Well, it’s about 200 pages, 200 pages where you will join us on our travels to all these progressive workplaces. So we start from what I just shared to the point of frustration in these corporate environments. And the fact that we quit our jobs. And then we have the book is structured around eight trends that we see in these progressive workplaces. So the things these progressive companies do different than the more traditional ones. And in every chapter we take you with us on our Journey to, for example, Patagonia and many other pioneering organizations, and to see through our lens, what we learned from those companies. So based on these more than 100, plus workplace visits, we’ve picked out the most inspiring ones. And we wrote them down in a kind of adventure style way, where it’s not just a management book. So we actually want to make it want to make it more personal. So we, it’s really a lot of storytelling in there from our side, from our perspective. And then we share these these eight main trends and we share around 20 organizations that we visited, on how they were different so from companies, for example, a company in China and white goods manufacturer called hire, where they split up the big, traditional organization with 70,000 employees. They split it up into more than 4000 small companies that act like this startups where people select their own leaders set their own working hours, where salaries is dependent on how well they perform in their small startup. So, companies like this all the way to companies, for example, a company we visited in Brazil, a company called semco. Were manufacturing, where this manufacturing company allows its employees to set their own salary to determine their own working hours to set up their own companies and find people around them to collaborate with them to make those companies a success. So a lot of different organizations we describe and then we form them around those eight trends. So in a sense, you will learn the basics of how these progressive companies work.

Jennifer Thompson 31:45
Fabulous and it is a delightful read because it is a great adventure that you go on. And you’re you’re talking about these eight trends. Do You Do you mind if I list these eight trends for my listeners now?

Pim de Morree 32:00
Yeah, go ahead.

Jennifer Thompson 32:01
Okay, so the first one is to move from profit to purpose and values. The second is
to go from a hierarchical pyramid to a network of teams. The third one to go from direct leadership to support supportive leadership. Fourth, from planned and predict
to experiment and adapt, five rules and controls moving to freedom and trust, six centralized authority going to distributed decision making, and seven from secrecy to radical transparency, and eight from job descriptions, very near and dear to my heart to talent and mastery. So some big shifts. And of course, I’m interested in that last one the the job descriptions to talent and mastery. So what is what is the difference there? Can you can you share that quickly.

Pim de Morree 33:00
Yeah, so the what we did, first of all, we did a big research study here in the Netherlands. And when we had those eight trends, and we wanted to understand how present are each of these trends in today’s workplaces, in Holland, and painfully, we saw that them, one of them. One of the ones that was most missing was the talents and mastery ones. So one of the results was that 33% of the people who were surveyed, felt they could use their main talents in their day to day work. Just 33% meaning that 67% of the people so two thirds of the people cannot use their main talents in their day to day work, which is not just a waste of talent, but also a waste of motivation and a waste of performance also for companies because they hire people and they don’t use their main talents.

Jennifer Thompson 33:52
So they just makes me want to say, holy shit, like what else do you say to that? So most of us are not Using our greatest talents.

Pim de Morree 34:02
Yeah. And it’s such such a waste. So apparently in this this fact, bytes in itself already shows that the way we organize work is terribly wrong. And it’s outdated and doesn’t make any sense. So, what we see in progressive organizations, they don’t focus so much on job titles. Sometimes they get rid of them altogether. Or they don’t focus that much on job descriptions, which take people’s day to day activities. And then when they hire people, they make sure they hire for that specific job description. Progressive organizations instead focus on and figure out what are the talents of my people inside the organization or even inside a team? What are their main talents, not just the ones at work, but also the things they like to do at home? And, and how can we make sure that we craft a job around those main talents? So how can we make sure that the people in our teams are doing the things they like to do most with the belief that if People do things they like to do most, not just motivation and engagement will increase, but also the performance of these people will increase tremendously. So it’s it’s just as simple as that. So figuring out ways and setting up practices in organizations to make sure that people are more focused towards their talents, and not hired for specific job descriptions. So the idea that people move from one job description to another doesn’t make a whole lot of sense anymore. Because it makes much more sense nowadays, for people to figure out what it is they love to do, and then making sure they develop themselves in that specific topic. And that’s what these companies try to do as much as possible.

Jennifer Thompson 35:42
Fabulous and such common sense. It’s amazing how not common it is.

Pim de Morree 35:48
Yeah, we see that with quite a lot of these topics. So it sounds very much common sense. Also, when you look at for example, to the other trend from losing control to freedom and trust, like it makes also a lot of sense. To give people some autonomy because at home, people can raise children, they can buy a house, and maintain relationships with friends. And all of a sudden when they come into the workplace, they’re not allowed to spend 100 or $200 of company money. It’s also not a lot of common sense. But still, in many organizations, we tend to think that that’s a good approach to work, which is not really the case.

Jennifer Thompson 36:25
It’s funny that she is that example of spending money. I knew that I was frustrated with a job like it came full focus, when I asked to make a $50 purchase, and it had to go up two levels in the company to make that purchase. And I was told no, I was floored. You know, I was working over billions of dollars worth of product but I couldn’t make a $50 decision and I really realized we were just mired in bureaucracy and going to struggle at that point. You’re totally right.

Pim de Morree 37:02
That’s a good example. And at the same time, even if you’re not allowed to spend maybe 50 $50. At the same time, everybody in most organizations at least is allowed to set up a meeting with at least a people who spend one or two hours in a meeting. And if you add up all of those hourly wages, you’re probably a lot higher than $50.

Jennifer Thompson 37:23
Oh, if you could see my face now and the the giggles that are erupting from it, it’s it’s totally true. It’s totally true. Yes. What What should we trust people on totally makes sense? Well, Tim, kind of my one last question. You know, we’ve touched on a great number of topics. I absolutely love this. I’m thrilled to have had you had you on the show today. But if you had like one piece of advice for someone who knows what they’re passionate about and wants to do something different, what would be your piece of advice To be able to find a company that they can do what they love what what they really are talented at doing how, what, what’s that advice,

Pim de Morree 38:09
But comes back to, first of all that working out loud. So share what you’re passionate about. Search for other people who are passionate about this topic. So nowadays online, you have so much opportunities to find people who are passionate about the same things. Get into those groups, whether it’s Facebook communities, or whether it’s LinkedIn groups, or whether it’s local meetups that you can join all kinds of ways to find people that are like minded and to believe in the same thing. And start talking with these people. Share what you’re passionate about. And then organically I think you will find companies and jobs that fits with that passion. And so it’s about being open What about what you’re passionate about sharing what you learn, and at the same time, also trying to find groups That belief in the same thing and that are passionate about the same topic. I think this is the most vital parts of anybody who already knows at least what they’re passionate about.

Jennifer Thompson 39:09
That is absolutely great advice is get out there. I like it work out loud. I think I’m gonna make a poster for my office that that says that it’s such good advice. Well, Tim, it has been a pleasure to have you on today, I will be sure to link in the show notes to your great book, which they can purchase on on Amazon and their channels as well. And of course, also link back to your website that shares information on continuing the journey that you all on. So thank you so much. I appreciate it and look forward to seeing more from the Corporate Rebels.

Pim de Morree 39:52
Thank you very much. I enjoyed being here and also for people that are interested in finding some of those pioneering Organizations if you go to our websites, and if you click on the bucket list there you have a world map with all these companies where we’ve been to and the ones we still want to visit, so maybe that can also be a good starting point for people who are looking for inspiring companies to work for.

Jennifer Thompson 40:18
Fabulous, I will link that in the show notes as well. Well, thank you so much, and I look forward to hearing more from you all. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to me if you’d write us a quick review over on iTunes. It really does help other people understand what this podcast is about and hopefully encourage them to listen as well. Until next time, Be Deviant!